Igniting accessible experiences podcast - episode 4

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  [00:00:00] Ben: Welcome to the Accessible Tourism in Queensland podcast, where you'll hear from people with disability tourism, operators, and experts in accessibility and disability inclusion. This podcast is sponsored by the Queensland Government and welcome back to today's episode. I'm your host, Ben Pettingill. Obviously bringing my lived experience to the conversation of having lost 98% of my eyesight at 16, but today's episode is focused on Universal Design.

  [00:00:29] Got two amazing guests here with me today, Bianca Bassett, Zack Alcott. Welcome!

  [00:00:35] Bianca: Thanks Ben.

  [00:00:35] Zack: G'Day Benny. Thanks for having us.

  [00:00:38] Ben: No, thank you so much for being here. To kick off, we kick off every single episode the same way with this exact same question. I'm gonna ask one of you at a time, Zack, I'll start with you. Mate, why is accessible tourism important to you?

  [00:00:52] Zack: So everybody can see this great country that we live in. And by everyone, I mean everyone from all [00:01:00] abilities and also share that experience with everybody, family, friends, etc. So it's such a cool opportunity to be on this pod today and have a chat to you about how we can welcome as many people as possible to the great state of Queensland.

  [00:01:15] Ben: Absolutely mate, love it, and Bianca yourself, why is accessible tourism important for you?

  [00:01:22] Bianca: Oh, look, I have five kids and so holidays are really important and when you have five kids and as a mum who I'm also a wheelchair user and a younger child with autism, there's a lot to consider.

  [00:01:36] So accessible tourism is so important for us and you know, Queensland's always been one of our favourite destinations. So yeah, it's about taking a break, right? It's about getting away from home, having a break from the norm, from the barriers that we are facing day to day, every day and really just having a release.

  [00:01:56] That's why we all go on holidays and love to [00:02:00] experience different things across our like you said, Zack, our gorgeous country that we have.

  [00:02:05] Ben: And Bianca, you touched on it there describing yourself as a wheelchair user. Are you able to share with us your connection to disability?

  [00:02:12] Bianca: Yeah, so I'm an above knee amputee and as I said, a wheelchair user, so physical accessibility's important for me to get around.

  [00:02:21] However, like I said, I have a a young son, well not young, I guess he's 19 now, but he is autistic. So he has his own accessibility requirements when we go on holidays. And then we have other, you know, the other four kids as well, and as we know, kids all have their own individual needs. So balancing all that out and planning for that is really, really important.

  [00:02:45] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing your connection. Zack, what about your connection to disability, mate?

  [00:02:52] Zack: Yeah, my connection. I have had a brother with disability for most of my life. My younger brother who was born three years after [00:03:00] I was born.

  [00:03:00] So I've been around disability for my whole life and witnessed firsthand what it was like to go to school with growing up with a disability, employment or trying to get a job while having a disability and going on family holidays with a sibling that has disability. Now that sibling has grown up to be 15 time wheelchair tennis Grand Slam winner, four time Paralympic gold medalist, Australian of the Year, my boss and my parents', number one son, Dylan Alcott but you know, he's lived a really charmed life, but I've also seen firsthand the barriers and you know, Dylan hasn't always had that profile.

  [00:03:38] For many years we were just your average family desperately searching for holidays that we could all go together on and feel equally as included. Like mum and dad really stressing thinking, all right, how can we go on a holiday? And Zack and Dylan can spend time together doing the same things and we can do all the things [00:04:00] together.

  [00:04:00] Which was challenging, mum and dad did the best they can and, and did a tremendous job finding these destinations you know, a lot of them on the Gold Coast, as I think back in my SeaWorld trips and and Warner Brothers trips. But it wasn't easy. They worked really hard to discover them.

  [00:04:17] Ben: Bianca and Zack, I know you both outside of the podcast studio as well, you do a lot of work in the disability access and inclusion space, and that's exactly why we've got both of you in today to talk a little bit more about this topic of Universal Design. So now, tourism operators out there people in the travel industry in Queensland, some of you may have heard of this word, Universal Design, the term some of you may not of and if you haven't, that's okay.

  [00:04:42] That's why this episode will be a great learning opportunity for you and if you have heard about it, there's gonna be so much to learn as well. So Universal Design. Not up to me to talk about it. I'm gonna hand over to you. Who would like to start? What is Universal Design?

  [00:04:56] Zack: Yeah, Benny, I can jump in here. So Universal Design [00:05:00] is seven principles, so it's a way of thinking and methodology in which we can apply to products, services, and environments. And before I get into the seven principles themselves, in its simplest form, it's how do we design spaces, services, customer services, products that can welcome and invite as many people as possible to access the same product, service and environment with minimal change and minimal independence?

  [00:05:31] You know, in its simplest form, I always use the example of when you're entering a building, the best Universal Design is the front door of a building that everybody enters independently by themselves. It's not the door when you walk up the set of stairs that I walk up because I don't have a disability, but Bianca in her wheelchair has to go around the side, up a ramp, through the kitchen, and then we meet back in the foyer.

  [00:05:58] The best Universal Design is [00:06:00] the spaces that we all use together. So I did mention there's seven guiding principles of Universal Design.

  [00:06:06] Ben: Yeah. What are they?

  [00:06:07] Zack: Yeah, so they are equitable in use, flexible in use, simple and intuitive to use, precipital information, tolerance for error, low physical effort and size and space for approach and use.

  [00:06:23] Ben: So is Universal Design a choice?

  [00:06:25] Zack: I would probably say Benny, it's a mindset. You know, I sound like a fitness influencer when I say it's a lifestyle.

  [00:06:32] Ben: A choice to think that way.

  [00:06:34] Zack: It is a mindset. And with that mindset, it can be as big and or as small as you want to do it as how you want to apply it.

  [00:06:42] So what I mean by that is, you know, if you're redesigning a pub or a restaurant or a boat jetty, you know, at the start thinking about Universal Design on can as many people as possible, wheelchair users, people who are blind or low vision, people who are autistic come on [00:07:00] into this venue, the same way that people without disability could be. Or in a more smaller example, it could be something around the way that people have access to information. Can this information be as accessible and useful to as many people as possible? Now, Benny, you're a person with low vision user, a screen reader but we need the same information when we're, when we're researching on where to go, holiday wise.

  [00:07:28] Ben: Just so we're clear with Universal Designs Act, you've just mentioned information for someone like myself using a screen reader, Universal Design doesn't mean that if you're providing information, you have to come up with one way that suits absolutely everyone, Potentially there might be multiple formats of information to cater for everyone, is that true?

  [00:07:48] Zack: Exactly. So that would fall into the flexibility of use. So there are multiple options and, and when we think for operators, if you are doing a tour there might be one direction that might [00:08:00] not be as accessible, and then there's another part of a trail, for example, that can be more accessible for someone using a mobility device. So having that option and being able to communicate with someone that, "okay, we can either go left or right" and then, and then they make their decision from there.

  [00:08:18] Ben: Bianca, we've talked about what it is, but this one specifically for you.

  [00:08:23] You live and breathe living with disability every single day. Who is Universal Designed for? And why is it important?

  [00:08:31] Bianca: Universal Design is actually for everyone. I did mention that I have five kids. I was a young mum three kids under three and Universal Design when pushing a pram around is really important.

  [00:08:44] So it's not just something that caters for people with disability. And I think that's a really important point that Universal Design is you know, that methodology that caters for so many people globally, this is not just a national principle, this [00:09:00] is a global principle. And so being able to provide that access and those universal principles more broadly, you are opening it up to so many more people.

  [00:09:13] Ben: When you were pushing your kids around at a pram, Were you in a wheelchair?

  [00:09:17] Bianca: No, no, I had two legs.

  [00:09:19] Ben: Once upon a time.

  [00:09:22] Bianca: That's a story for another podcast. But no, yeah when I had the kids, I had, like I said, I wasn't a wheelchair user, I was able to get around. But now as a wheelchair user, I do find similar barriers. Obviously different in the way that I address those barriers and the way that I navigate those barriers.

  [00:09:40] But absolutely stairs is classic, escalators things like, you know, being able to access spaces, noisy spaces, you know, with kids with sensory. Needs you know, lots of lights and lots of noise and not having access to quiet spaces and[00:10:00] you know, things like that. Taking into account for creating those universal principles in different areas and spaces that we're creating.

  [00:10:08] Ben: I would love to now go into the benefits. We've talked about who it's for, we've talked about what it is, we've talked a little bit about the why, but what are the benefits to Universal Design?

  [00:10:18] Zack: You make more money if you're able to invite as many more people to your venue area, business. You're welcoming more people through your doors to spend cash, if I'm being honest.

  [00:10:32] And that's, that's okay. You're allowed to make your products accessible and inclusive for people with disability. And there's some studies out there that show that people with disability will travel on average in a group of four, as in, not four people with disability traveling in a group, but they will be with themselves plus three other people with disability or without disability.

  [00:10:55] So When we talk about the one in five Australians living with a [00:11:00] disability four point 6 million Australians, it's not just that 4.6 million that you're potentially welcoming or turning away because there's a multiplier of upwards of four people. And so it benefits everyone. I know we're talking about you design it for everyone and you know, everyone can use it and benefit it.

  [00:11:21] But from a financial position as well. It really benefits businesses, governments, local governments, operators, small and big.

  [00:11:31] Ben: What is the return on investment like when it comes to Universal Design, because I'm hearing and learning about it here sounds like potentially there's a bit involved.

  [00:11:43] What cost does it add in the design phase and what is the return on investment like?

  [00:11:47] Zack: Yeah, so if you are designing from the ground up, so clean slate and doing the plans if you do it at the start, it only adds 0.5% to your average construction of a [00:12:00] space design space or building.

  [00:12:02] And then the return on investment you have for every dollar that you spend in Universal Design, you can make upwards of $13 to $17 return on that dollar. Now we need to appreciate that it doesn't mean everyone now needs to rip down their joint, all their places or their jetties or, or pubs and clubs, but it's something to consider when that time comes up for a reno, for a facelift and a lot of businesses are always thinking like, how can I get that competitive edge? How can I differentiate myself from other operators within the region? And providing that accessible guest experience for everyone is a real competitive edge because it's easy, it's enjoyable. Everything isn't accessible so if someone has had a great time at your business, they're more than likely to return as well.

  [00:12:57] Ben: Absolutely, for sure. Bianca, getting back to [00:13:00] positive experiences and the, the places that you've seen do Universal Design well it'd be great to hear from you about a couple of those.

  [00:13:08] Bianca: Yeah. So I was actually up in Bundaberg quite recently the summer just gone and over Christmas, and we went to the macadamia farm up there and it was fabulous. We met friends, I had family with me. We grabbed a coffee, we were able to experience the whole place exactly the same. We stayed for ages, we ended up getting lunch. We, we stayed for a lot longer than we anticipated, actually cause it it was just such a great space. And we could tell from as soon as we got there, those Universal Design principles had been applied. And that access, and it wasn't just the access, it wasn't just the physicality, it was the whole inclusion piece that made our experience there really enjoyable.

  [00:13:52] And we went back, actually, we went back the following day and a few days after.

  [00:13:58] Zack: Bianca can you give some examples [00:14:00] specifically around what was at the macadamia farm that was, that worked for you that you don't see elsewhere?

  [00:14:06] Bianca: So the entrance is really opened., Really flat. I could get through with my chair, our friend who has an assistance dog, they could get through really easily.

  [00:14:17] It was the way they had their tables and chairs set up as well, so we weren't navigating around tight spaces with tables and chairs. It was how they presented their menu. Their menus were really easy to read. It was almost every interaction point, even from where the macadamia nuts were placed, where you could have examples, I could reach them, people who were standing could reach them, kids could reach them.

  [00:14:42] And then the products that they were selling themselves, all of the products for sale, I could reach them. There was nothing on a high shelf that was out of reach and distance for me which made such a huge difference to my pocket.

  [00:14:59] Ben: But that's [00:15:00] incredible and I think there was a little part of me there when you started talking, going, I wonder if this was done by chance, as in potentially the macadamia farm just happens to have a wide entrance.

  [00:15:10] Potentially they've got a big space and they've just happened to put tables. All spaced out, so it looks like a full area, but then when you start going into that next level of, and everything was at an accessible height and every single thing that was for sale, I was able to reach. That's not done by chance.

  [00:15:26] And I think the best examples of Universal Design aren't done by chance. They're done by intention. And I think it's so clear with all of those examples that you've just given that it was well thought out, well thought through and done on purpose which everyone is able to do because like you said at the start that Universal Design.

  [00:15:44] Isn't just a way of building or designing, it's a way of thinking that that's a mindset.

  [00:15:48] Zack: Correct. The best Universal Design is actually the stuff you don't notice, it's just a space. And when you go in to like Bianca's example, and Ben, I think you touched on it [00:16:00] there being like, "oh, is this just happening by chance?", it's in its simplest form. Just really good clever design and design of products, services, and buildings and customer service. So it goes across the gamut and in it's simplest form, it's just being considerate of as many people as possible and how they would interact with what you're offering.

  [00:16:22] Bianca: And an interesting point, the group of people, that I was there with. They were making comments on how beautiful and architecturally designed the space was. So Universal Design can actually be really stunning.

  [00:16:35] Ben: It's not ugly.

  [00:16:36] Bianca: No. No, not at all.

  [00:16:38] Zack: Stairs are ugly.

  [00:16:39] Ben: Not that it matters to me whether it's ugly or not. I think everything's pretty, the entire world looks good to me, but putting ourselves in the shoes of tourism operators, travel operators, people in the hospitality industry in Queensland right now will be listening to this saying, where do I start?

  [00:16:56] "Where do I start to learn more about Universal Design to start [00:17:00] implementing it within my business?"

  [00:17:02] Where would you direct people to go?

  [00:17:03] Zack: Start thinking, first of all, more broadly on, what I mentioned around how can I get as many people as possible engaging with a product, a service what whatever I'm offering.

  [00:17:17] And challenging challenge your thoughts of, "oh, well, we've always done it this way", because there's so much opportunity to improve what you're offering at a low cost. And then secondly, you know, you can get in touch with us. We're a consultancy service. We work with small, medium, large organisations to help them better understand access and inclusion for people with disability.

  [00:17:42] There's plenty online around Universal Design if you wanna learn more and have a look at the principles and listen to your customers with disability. Listen to people and the voices of people with disability because they will guide you in where you [00:18:00] can make improvements.

  [00:18:01] Also, people with disability are super practical in their solutions, so there might be a barrier and their feedback on how to fix it could be really simple.

  [00:18:11] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Be open to the feedback and Bianca that's a really nice segue to you. What does that mean to you as someone with disability when an organisation you are seeing or hearing has been open to your feedback open to learn and open to change?

  [00:18:29] Bianca: Oh, anyone that's curious in this space, I lean right into it. One of the things that I think is important is don't let the barriers in your space be the barrier for change. Think about your mindset. I know that we've spoken about it a couple of times but Zack, you've got a really great point where just because it's been done like this for a long time, and I know that that's probably the easy way out but the benefits of thinking about that change and making small [00:19:00] changes in your business or in the service that you're offering, Can make such a huge difference not only to your business, but your bottom line. You're all there to make a dollar, but makes a big difference to customers and people with disability.

  [00:19:14] We spread the word. If you provide great access, we will let our friends and family know and that talking tree, I suppose, for want of a better word, is it goes a long way around Australia. We all keep connected.

  [00:19:27] Ben: Zack, Bianca, thank you so much for both your lived experience, but also your expertise and insight into Universal Design.

  [00:19:35] I think there's been not only a great business case built for why Universal Design should be at the front of everybody's mind when it comes to tourism, travel, and hospitality in Queensland but also not only that, why it's important. And I think everyone will walk away from today going away and googling Universal Design, familiarising yourselves with the principles and if that's the first thing you do great first steps and really practical tips, really practical [00:20:00] strategies.

  [00:20:00] Thank you so much for being on the podcast, and thank you for sharing.

  [00:20:02] Zack: Good on you, Benny. Thanks for having us.

  [00:20:04] Bianca: Thanks so much.